They could argue again, I guess maybe people will get bored of it or they’ll move on or they’ll get funding to do gut biome research instead, and that’s what they’ll do. Within a few months, you may have lost 10-20 pounds. So these two, they’re both high. They shouldn’t really care about your, you know your feelings. And then let’s look at what we’re dealing with, the two different foods. Even if you die a week later, the doctor will just say, well, obviously you didn’t start the low fat diet soon enough. So their assumption is that they’re right and I’m wrong. A couple of chemists at the University of Utah say they’ve created that all of our understanding of nuclear fusion is wrong and you create nuclear fusion in a test tube, a glass of water with an electrode made out of palladium. Alzheimer’s, heart disease, like these are things that seem like if the root cause is potentially the same thing, that seems pretty compelling for somebody to try to figure it out. So now you walk into a field where you’ve never covered. If you eat this diet, get rid of the carbs, replace it with fat, you’ll get healthier and then they can watch that happen and you can experience it yourself and then you have to decide if you do get healthier, do you want to stay that way? If you eat this diet, get rid of the carbs, replace it with fat, you’ll get healthier and then they can watch that happen and you can experience it yourself and then you have to decide if you do get healthier, do you want to stay that way? They shouldn’t really care about your, you know your feelings. So. Ideally someone would be saying, well, we have obesity and diabetes epidemics so these are the most important questions and let’s focus our attention on those. I thought it was naive. And the editor I was working with was like, no, you need somebody to say something beyond, no, that just doesn’t make any sense. It’s not a medical community, we’ll call it an energy balance sorters, not about how much calories you weed versus calories expended. and I hope I can get this right. Gary Taubes: But again is it a baguette in Europe versus a baguette here? Taubes: That’s true, that’s very true. So we kind of have two factors working at once and working differently on a population wide basis. Your blood pressure’s coming down, your blood sugar is under control, your doctor is, hopefully your doctor is helping you with this, he or she is getting you off your blood pressure meds and your blood sugar medications. Normally when people like me and the academics who come in, a few of them do say, look, the entire community is wrong. Then there’s a small, tiny part of the community that seems to be mostly the blogosphere. We’ve been arguing about for 40 years. It’s all new to you. And after our initial five years of funding ran out, I think they were a little frustrated with the amateur nature of our organization. First let’s figure out which foods it is. Gary Taubes: That’s what’s even interesting because these people get funded if they’re good, they get funded to do something that they already think is interesting and is fascinating and they’re not getting enough money to do it. You can’t do that because your editor hasn’t talked to Taubes and Teicholz. And if you’re a journalist you think, well I’ve got to, I’m going to talk to a dozen experts. You could tell. It’s what makes this so tricky. And second of all, they’re clearly incorrect. If I was in their shoes, I would feel the same way. There’s so many different things you can study that can sort of, you’ve got these disciplines and sub disciplines, and sub sub sub sub sub disciplines and you get slotted into one early and that’s what you build your career on and that’s what you get your funding on and that’s what your postdocs are studying and that’s what your graduate students are studying. Gary Taubes: One of my favorite quotes from science is back from my physics days, a Nobel laureate at MIT named. So that’s out of the question. They’re all so bad I wouldn’t want to rate which one was somehow worse than the other, but it’s the one of the five words scientists I ever interviewed. So anything is possible. And now you’ve got thousands to tens of thousands of doctors, it’s hard to quantify. I don’t, what’s he leaving out? That research is impossible do. Foods that would give me gastrointestinal distress in the U.S. did not do that in Paris. So when you look at the landscape of all of where we are today and there’s like obviously all these people who are doing the, and getting great results and social media is sort of everybody in their silos yelling at each other. Gary Taubes: I think it’s, again, it’s sort of, it’s a kind of emergence phenomenon in journalists society. This is one of the things that worries me even now with stuff like what Tom is doing and Luke Hanley at Harvard, well now and Cornell, what they’ve been doing is fascinating, but the really good people in their field are doing other things and are busy doing other things and are doing other things that fascinate them and that they’ve got a huge investment in. I did a podcast, an economics podcast, EconTalk with Russ Roberts. He’s saying, if you eat this diet, you may live longer and have a heart attack later than you would otherwise or maybe not have this heart attack at all and there’s no way to tell if that’s true. Emily: So let’s talk about your sort of career switch going from journalism to cofounding running. Gary Taubes: Well, it’s interesting and it depends on the, I’d want to talk to her about the foods. I run it. Everything these guys are finding are subtle effects. Now in reality, yeah, that’s the ideal. There’s always evidence for something. Cafe Fire Hengistbury Head, Scientists would say it’s a different paradigm, a word that’s overused to death these days, but it is very much in the different paradigm from this energy balance idea. The oldest executive at Pioneer Floating Rate Trust is Benjamin Friedman, 75, who is the Independent Trustee. It’s a hormonal disorder that’s triggered by the carbohydrate content of the diet and the carbohydrates raise insulin, which basically puts your body into a mode where your fat cells are taking up fat and holding on to them and you get fatter. It’s like you’re trying to refute the hypothesis. They brought in some colleagues and then there was this young researcher at NIH who I had been introduced to me along the way and also thought that the calorie balance thing was wrong, although he had a different hypothesis about how this all worked, a kind of fat balance hypothesis. EpiMonitor: Well let’s talk then about the different “culprits” in your 1995 article. Or a baguette in Europe verses Wonderbread here? If not wrong, then sort of just silly. Gary Taubes: Yeah. Have you? So you end up with a situation where you put in their perspective, but it’s still counterbalanced by the much greater weight of academics who believe that conventional thinking. It’s fashionable. And this article is coming out in a week and what I didn’t know was that it had been leaked to Science in advance. You just know that. Gary Taubes: I believe he believed what he said and I believe that he saw this as an ethical conflict and he felt challenged by it. We were naive about the costs and the experiment. We’ve even managed to convince enough physicians to try it for themselves, that the physicians became convinced and they convinced other physicians. I’m surprised. But I think you need a layer of administration above that which currently exists or outside that which currently exists to make those, come to those conclusions. I mean like some of the stuff is still happening even though there seems to be like grassroots efforts and certainly I mean your books have been bestsellers. So then I interviewed the principal investigator. I remember thinking this is ridiculous and it’s like taking so much of my time to talk to all these people who are sort of like, oh, that’s interesting. He must be making it up. So those experiments have to be done. We’ve been able to convince people that these Keto diets, very low carb diets will not kill them. If not wrong, then sort of just silly. So it’s sort of, and I discussed this in the book, I’m just finishing up now. Tierney follows Taubes in noting that a 2001 Cochrane meta-analysis of low-fat diets found that they had "no significant effect on mortality". And so the way you normally do these articles as a correspondent is you, so it’s not out yet, it’s embargoed, your article’s gotta be embargoed until the article comes out in the New England Journal. You’re not saying don’t ever eat a French fry again or don’t eat a potato chip again, which is what this message is. You can’t bullshit him. You get rid of the carbs, you replace with fat, but you keep their calories high. But there are these sort of small steps. So the reason you get fat is because you are either not expending enough or you are taking in too many calories. If you think about sort of other fields, sports, politics, crime, people have their beats and they stay with those beats for decades. And what’s interesting is because it was so big and it was the front page of all the papers, and suddenly there was this promise of an enormous amount of funding to study it. “I have a passion to serve people using my knowledge of both eastern holistic energy healing and my education in western medicine. And so what he meant was it’s like you always want to be first, you don’t want to like, you end up replicating experiments because you want to go beyond the work that somebody else did. Why do they keep getting fatter? Best Exeter Accommodation, But I mean if you want to do science then you’ve got to live up to the standards. Which seems very much in line with what we would all say is, , right? The argument I make in. She won’t do it. So sports writer, the guy who’s been writing about football and basketball for the New York Times has been writing about him for 20-30 years. And they see fairly remarkable things that happen. And if you try to put together a proposal to study what Tom Seyfried is studying, and then you put the proposal into the. And those studies have been done and the results are ambiguous, as the results of studies typically are. How did we screw up? Their job is to help you figure out how you fooled yourself.

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